Overcoming Fear-Based Leadership: Insights from Rod Brace

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Casey Cease: Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Casey Cease Show. Casey here. And I’m here with one of my very special friends, special guest, Rod Brace. And I remember meeting Rod in the year 2000. So over 20 years ago, we were sitting in a circle in a prayer circle for a nonprofit music band we were part of, I was 22 years old.

Rod was like, 23, a little older. And he was just immediately there was a unique presence about this guy of wisdom and grace and peace. And so, I really enjoyed getting to meet him. And over the years, he won’t [00:01:00] tell you this. So I’ll tell it in the year 2001, he helped me start a nonprofit called Casey Cease outreach that then turned into transform ministries that we’ve run over 20 years.

He helped me with the idea and to launch Lucid Books back in 2006, and has just been an amazing mentor, coach, and friend over the year to not only myself, but he and his wife, Diane and his boys are dear to our family. And it’s just worth so much to our family.

And so I wanted to share him with the world, with the people that are coming on the show and each week we’re going to have episodes talking about life, faith, family, business, and Rod really encompasses all of those things. And so. rather than tell his whole story. I just want to provide some context of the depth of relationship.

And for those of you out there that are interested in maybe mentoring somebody or pouring into somebody, Rod has done that multiple times over, not only in church life, but in business and through friendships. And it’s just a beautiful example of walking that tension of faith, family, business and doing that well.

So Rod, [00:02:00] Thanks so much for joining me today. It’s always a joy to spend time with you. And this is like sincere, like I’m not acting. It’s just it’s just super cool to see over 20 years of friendship form. And so why don’t you share a little bit about yourself, a little bit about your family and your career and faith experience and really whatever you want. You have free reign on this show to talk about what you want, but I’ll interject occasionally, but I’ve learned best to just be quiet and let you be you. Ladies and gentlemen, Rob Brace. Yeah.

Rod Brace: Thank you, Casey. It’s a very kind of you and certainly you’re highly investable. So, I appreciate all the opportunity to invest in your life and life for your family. And so, you’ve really taken the blessings and gifts that God’s given you and used them in some very unique ways.

And so, that’s always been a great to watch from the sidelines is how that happens. Oh career is it’s I have been in a couple different industries throughout the career, right out of college, I started in retail and it was a glamorous job called new market development and basically meant that you get to [00:03:00] move every nine months and go set up in a new store every nine months in a new city, and you would get, two to three days notice that you’re going to have to move to the next stop.

And so through that, we actually went through Illinois, Louisiana, and eventually ended up in Houston, Texas. And we had finished up one assignment there, and now they wanted us to move to San Diego.

And at the time, our oldest son was, two or three years old, and we said, one, San Diego is really expensive and two, this kid can’t move every nine months. And so, let’s do something different. And I put out a little bitty classified ad in a newspaper. This was back in the 80s in the Houston Chronicle.

And it just said something like Christian business leader looking for an opportunity. And so out of the blue, this guy calls me and he said Hey, I’ve got a seafood company and [00:04:00] we’re, basically selling the wholesale to these large processing plants. But I’d like to break into the restaurant business and have you set up a sales force.

And so, the 23, 24 year old man in me was like, bulletproof, I can do anything. And so, sure, I’ll come and help you set up sales. And I’ve never done sales in my life. And so after about three months of selling up the sales program. I had sold one 50 pound box of shrimp to a local retail chain.

And the foreman of the plant there called me out one Saturday. He said, they need to have a team meeting and he sort of rushes out of the building, meets me in the parking lot The owner wasn’t even with him. And, it’s one of those conversations where he had his head down looking at the ground and he said, Rod, I got to tell you, you’re terrible at this job but there’s probably something out there that’s better for you. [00:05:00] So I’m going to free up your future for that. And so, here I am with a, young baby, no income had to go through the very encouraging process of at the time you had to go in person for your work, your check of unemployment check and go through the humiliation of, did you look for work this week?

And I would say, Oh yes, ma’am. I’ve got, all these letters. And here’s she said, she goes, it’s yes or no, son. And, so you go through all this just to get your unemployment check to survive. And so, in the midst of that, I had my undergraduate degree, was marketing and so my brother was in health care at the time. And marketing was just starting to come in vogue and health care in the 80s.

And so he said, hey, we hired this marketing company at our hospital they worked at said what they did. What don’t make sense. Would you be interested in taking a shot at putting a marketing plan together for us and we can’t pay you, but [00:06:00] I’ll give you a plane ticket and you can fly out to where he was at the time.

And so I did and they found it interesting and they implemented a lot of things and I said, I thought maybe this is a good way to at least put some food on the table and do some consulting for a while. And so I sent out I blanked out the proposal or the plan that I did for him.

And I sent it out to 23 of the roughly 60 hospitals in Houston at the time. And saying, if you need some of this consulting work, let me know. I got two responses, one, was from a very large hospital in Houston where I don’t know, for whatever reason, the marketing director at the time, she had an interview with me and basically it was to tell me I had no business being in healthcare, particularly healthcare marketing.

I would never make it in that world and, she wanted to do me a favor and tell me to move on to something different. So I said thank you. Appreciate that input. The second one came from a [00:07:00] call from a hospital CEO of a small hospital. And he said, I don’t have a job here, but called this person.

He has a director of a marketing position open. And so I did long story short, I got the job over there. Worked there for several years as a marketing director and then moved into administration. 10 years later, I found myself sitting in the very office of that hospital CEO that had called and told me about the job and I now was the CEO of that hospital.

And three years later, I was named a Regional President for the corporation of which one of the hospitals under my oversight was the hospital that the marketing director called me over and said, I’d never have a place in health care. And so, know, you look back at that and you say, you can’t make that stuff up.

That is just the hand of God on you throughout your career [00:08:00] so I really adopted sort of a business philosophy of Matthew 20 where we know the story of, the gist of the story is, the first shall be last and the last shall be first, but in the midst of that, it starts with that story.

It says the kingdom of God is like this. And it tells the story of a vineyard owner who goes out and he basically hires all these day laborers. And so as a day laborer, you don’t know exactly what you’re going to do that day. You don’t know exactly who you’re going to work with. You just know that you just show up in the day labor line.

And so I adopted that as, my philosophy of just show up. And see what God has for you that day. See who God has for you to work with that day. Now I’ll tell you, as I grew in my career to executive status, I would each year have lots of the new MBAs that would come out and they’d want to sit down with you and say, tell me, how your career track went, tell me how you developed your career.

[00:09:00] And they were extremely disappointed when I told them. I just show up, go read Matthew 20 and everybody’s looking for a formula. Everybody’s looking for a way to get visible. But rarely are we looking for God’s hand in our career. Oftentimes it’s a point where we are unemployed or seeking some new direction and God’s there for us for those time.

But it’s rare that we make that leap from what we hear on a Sunday to what we do on a Monday.

And so, I was in healthcare for 35 years. I retired back in 2018. Don’t play golf, so I decided why not start a part time consulting company. And so I invited two of my colleagues that I’d work with over the year. Two of them are physicians, and we started a company that basically used the science of high reliability.

That you find on nuclear subs and aircraft carriers and nuclear power plants high [00:10:00] incidence of harm. If something goes wrong, we use those principles to teach hospitals and health systems, how to basically stop hurting and killing people. And

Casey Cease: That’s helpful.

Rod Brace: Yeah, through that, there’s a great deal of executive coaching that happens because you, as you can imagine, as a hospital CEO, you have to stand up in front of your board and say, Hey, ladies and gentlemen, we’re killing people.

And I’d like for you to hold us accountable for that. And so, that’s not easy. And there are days where you’re punched in the gut after you do it and you wish you had never started that journey. And so through that, I did a lot of executive coaching with CEOs and other C-suite members of multi billion dollar health systems.

And so, I really found that I like doing coaching, but I also continued to see that theme was lacking what you might call the Sunday to Monday gap where on Sunday, I hear the Proverb that I can cry out to God and he hears my prayer and delivers me from that fear. [00:11:00] But on Monday, I step right back into a fear based world where I even forget that God exists.

And so, I saw that time and time again. And so after several years of the consulting company and higher liability, I decided to start a company that really try to bridge that gap between God and work . And relate to people that God really does care about your work. And God does have a plan. And that plan may be to show up in the line of people looking for day labor. But there’s a plan and he’s with you throughout that.

And so it started Motivity Media, which is really towards, trying to convince leaders that God has a place in their work and trying to convince leaders that there’s a place for the science and research. I’m all about the research. I’m an academic, a PhD in management. And so I understand the research, but also understand there’s nothing [00:12:00] that doesn’t also fit with biblical application. And so, I think each of us can adopt the Bible as a bit of a biblical operating system that we can use as leaders that will tell us, how do you handle emails and how do you handle critical conversations and how do you handle strategy? And I think all that’s found in the Bible.

And so leadership is my Christlike. Behavior as a leader is my passion. I think leaders have a moral obligation to those that they lead and that the Bible has a lot to say about that. So that’s been my journey so far. Who knows where it’ll go from here?

Casey Cease: It’s been just so much fun to walk with you because you’re one of the first people in my life that acknowledged that I’m not as normal as some normal people are, but you’re able to really draw out the best in people. And I think that goes beyond just being a great manager. It’s also being able to [00:13:00] lead well and to actually understand and pay attention along the way.

As you transitioned, you have two beautiful boys. They both have beautiful wives. You have grandbabies. There were so many lessons that Steph and I learned from you and Diana over the years over generosity. I remember your first book Simplify Came Out and you were talking about, just living a more simplistic life.

And this was as your career was on an upward trajectory. And I remember you just simplifying things and being very intentional along the way. As you work with younger executives and other business leaders. As you’re moving into motivity, both on outside of, people who are not yet in the Christian faith and those who are, as you’ve been coaching a slew of executives over the year, what are some of the common challenges that you’re noticing they’re facing in this day and age in leadership and just overall work and business and all that?

Rod Brace: Yeah. And [00:14:00] surprisingly, there is a lot of commonality. And so, I do work with churches and I’ve been in church leadership positions as a, lay member and things like that. And there’s a great deal of commonality between churches and there’s with the multi billion dollar companies. And it makes sense because they all involve people follow the same predictable pattern.

But I’d say right now I don’t think I’ve known the workplace culture to be any more messed up than it is right now. And I think that is largely because there’s a lot of fear based leadership tactics. There’s a lot of fear based cultures in an organizations. And if you look back sometimes in the 80s, there was the shift between ethical business practices and a company that was smaller would take care of its employees for life to the measure of success [00:15:00] was a stakeholder success in the form of investors. And so once we make that switch from, my goal is to raise the value of my corporation through the value of our stock, I start to now look at employees as a means to that end their cog in the wheel.

And so if revenues are down, or even, if the stock price is down based upon some fluke in the market of some activity in some foreign country, I have to now lay off employees. I have to put in a place of prominence, the shareholder value. And so I think that was a really a turning point where it rightly so, a lot of employees entered into the workplace with some sort of fear that I could be easily laid off this Friday if the stock market goes down.

And so I think that a fear has grown over the years. I don’t think the pandemic did anything to help it. That fear in my mind is always tied to some lack of [00:16:00] control, and we want control so that we can have a sense of security. And so as a result, we’re always, our radar is always on in our workplace to say, Am I safe or am I unsafe?

And there’s a polarity to it that’s intriguing that says, I will always diminish what I see of messages and cues to me that I am safe. I’ll pay less attention to those, but I’ll pay more attention to those cues and messages that I’m unsafe. And so this priority exists that one of the obligations of a leader is to make sure that we convey to the employee as great a level of safety as possible.

Now, that may mean that we have to have some adult to adult conversation that would say, Casey, I can’t guarantee your employment forever, but right now, here are the circumstances that we live in. Here’s the context of the industry that, and a lot of leaders just don’t do that. If you see [00:17:00] employees as this cog in the machine, then you’re not going to take the time to say, here’s the context that you’re in. Here’s the information that you might need to decide whether or not your level of security is less or greater this week. But we as a leader have a moral obligation to do that. And that’s part of what creates psychological safety in an organization.

Where they know I can go ask my leader this question. I can go run this rumor by them. I can have all these opportunities to at least have better judgment of that.

I was a hospital CEO, I used to routinely do town hall meetings. And as part of those town hall meetings, you’d have some things that you want to share with the employees, but there was also question and answer.

And one of the fun things for me always fascinating is when telling my employees, I’m the last to hear rumors around here. Nobody’s going to come in and share a rumor with me. So tell me what the rumors are. Tell me what they are and then I would have an opportunity [00:18:00] to address those. And so what it did was it gave employees a little bit of a reason to share maybe some of their concerns, but position it.

Yeah, I’m hearing a rumor that we’re gonna close down or here a rumor or it could be layoffs. And it was a safe way for them to bring those out. And so I always encourage leaders to get out, be very transparent, very honest. Adult conversations. But I think you have a moral obligation as a leader, to address that point of security.

And so to your question what do we see right now? Tremendous fear based cultures in a lot of organizations. It takes a lot of years to unwind. Because people in the absence of information will depend on historical things that happen, and then they’ll sort of inflate that with their own twist on it.

Casey Cease: Well, It seems interesting to me that in a day and age when communication venues and vehicles are better than they have ever been. That there’s such a profound [00:19:00] lack of clear communication. Do you recall a time throughout your career? And I know you worked for a great organization when you were in the corporate world.

But do you remember a season where there was that kind of non fear based motivation in the workplace?

Rod Brace: Yeah, I mean, it largely depends on the leaders at the time. And so, I think, any organization create a trusting and honest and open relationship. I think, it largely has to do with the leader. And in fact, even if you are a leader that work in a large organization that is fear based, you and your area of influence can create that you have to serve a little bit as a buffer between what’s going on elsewhere, but you can create that on your own little subculture within a culture. So, I think that the problem that we have right now is communication tactics aren’t necessarily tied to the value of the communication.

And [00:20:00] so, yes, we all have our, you know, the phone in our hand that we can get immediate information from. We all have threads that we can read or posts that we get, but there’s not an opportunity for conversation. So what I usually, in my coaching, I encourage leaders to tell them that every employee in the organization, every week, needs to get at least 10 minutes of time with a supervisor.

And that time is spent on making sure that what they’re doing and what they plan to do next week is aligned with the purpose of the organization. Because there’s a tremendous amount of unaligned work in most organizations. And so, if I don’t know what’s expected of me as an employee, if I don’t have a conversation with you, my boss, to make sure that I’m aligned with that, then insecurity will set in.

so the way that we develop trust and security is that we make sure that we’re [00:21:00] having these conversations. We’re not just putting out something that everybody knows the CEO didn’t write that some PR department wrote it. And we’re having the opportunity to go, you know, look eye to eye and say, ” Here’s what I’m doing.”

I’m wondering if that’s aligned with what I should be doing. What’s your expectations of me and so on. Now, having said that most leaders do an absolutely terrible job of setting expectations for their employees. It’s here’s the job description and it’s got that line in there, whatever else I tell you to do, that’s not expectation setting.

And I tell employees, if you don’t clearly understand what your boss wants of you, then that’s going to cause confusion and insecurity. And eventually you’re going to suboptimize your performance. And so you have to go ask them and I warned them that you’re probably not going to be approaching clarity on what’s expected of you.

Until you’re annoying because your boss hasn’t [00:22:00] really thought about taking the time to understand specifically what they want you to do and align it to the purpose of the organization. That’s hard work. It takes time. But it’s a disservice to employees and employees are sub optimized when we don’t do it.

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Casey Cease: so with motivity, when you’re building that out, tell me a little bit more about the vision of how, because I know you, you don’t just randomly think Oh, this might be a good idea. You’re free to try stuff. I know over the years you’ve tried a lot of things. But what led to the birthing of motivity at this time in your life and everything else? And what are you hoping that it contributes?

Cause you’ve always been contributing towards that idea. I still, it haunts me, Rod. Sometimes, when you say, “Every leader has a moral obligation to provide meaningful work for their people.”. And I would add, you know, especially as a Christian man, the way we treat our employees and want the best for them.

But as you’ve gotten to this point in your life where you’ve retired from your quote unquote day job, and you’ve been busy doing a lot of consulting and helping your son start businesses and grow businesses, but as you move into this life, like why now for motivity and what are you hoping that it’s going to accomplish and do?

Rod Brace: Yeah. So I think a lot of it’s born out of just the eye opening [00:24:00] conversations that I have with executives through the coaching practice to understand that they have challenges to even talk to those that have exhibited some interest in faith based practices, biblical applications, to see them struggle with. Yeah, that all sounds very nice and good that God would want that from me, but you don’t know my boss.

You don’t know the situation that I’m in, and so it goes back to this disconnect. And so, while we can take time on a coaching call to maybe talk through some of those things. there’s not enough time. Just d o it continually. And two, in some cases, the companies are paying me to advance their leadership skills and why I think it’s pertinent and the basis of how we lead.

It’s not always a great time to do that. And so, my thought was, it really started with just posting some articles on LinkedIn [00:25:00] about spirituality in the workplace. It didn’t have the sort of Christian viewpoint that I hold. It was just spirituality. And there was a lot of interest in those few articles, there were a couple of them.

And I got a lot of people contacting me directly to say, this is so refreshing. This is out there on LinkedIn. This is so refreshing, a way of thinking about things. And I decided that I would leave the company that I started for high reliability practices primarily because that’s not the target messaging for that company and I would start a new company.

And so, a Media really came into play in that one, if you primarily want to use the vehicle of LinkedIn ministry is probably not going to get you in front of people. And the content that I produce is a mix between, academic, practical, been there, done that, and biblical. And so it’s a sharing of information, so [00:26:00] let’s use the term media.

And motivity just means the power to move forward. So, it’s a word that we don’t use a lot. So it was something that was unique to people. And so, out of that was born Motivity Media, which started to put out there these leadership articles that also had a biblical application to them. And I was pretty prepared that, yeah, there may be an interest in this topic. But I’m probably not going to hear of people’s interest on LinkedIn, because they’re fearful that you know, boss may see them aspiring to some of these Christian principles or whatever it might be.

But I’ve been really surprised that people have, really stepped up and said, you know, that really makes sense, I really like how that was said. And so, it’s growing and it’s following. It’s got two elements to it. I’ve got every other week, newsletter that a deeper dive into [00:27:00] things like incivility in the workplace, or what is that moral obligation to leaders?

And then, it’s got a text messaging element to it as well, where 3 times a week, I send out just a 40, 455 character message that gives a Bible verse and then has a leadership application on Monday and Wednesday. And then Friday is a leadership tip. That’s usually based on some academic research that they can use.

And so, that list has been growing very fast as well. And so, all that to say, I think that people are now interested. I think that people have perhaps hit a place in their career where burnout is a real, choices have to be made about careers, and trying to better understand what it is that engages people.

As you referenced a while ago, my definition of engagement is making daily progress towards meaningful work. And so, if you think about your role as [00:28:00] a leader, it’s to make sure your employees make daily progress to meaningful work. But not all work is meaningful to every person. And so, I think God has something to say about our career and our interests, and I’m not one to believe that God’s will for our work is a specific dot on a map, but I think as long as we’re living within the moral will established by God as taught in the Bible that we’re within God’s will to do that work.

And the Bible is full of applications for leading people, applications for dealing with people and yet we’ve not really felt comfortable taking those into the workplace. If you want to mess up your work life, take a verse like, and all things love, alright,? Drastically changes. How you deal with your colleagues, how you deal with your boss, how your as a boss is a boss, how you deal with employees, how you deal with clients, and all things. Look, and so, been brainwashed in a way to [00:29:00] say, if I want to be successful, I have to be like the leader I work for, even though that leader may happen to be a narcissist, or an egomaniac or cruel to his people, if I want to get ahead, I’ve got to

Casey Cease: That’s how you have to be, right?

Rod Brace: Yeah. And I’ve had many conversations with people about, yeah, but is that who you want to be? No, but to be successful. Maybe you can be successful someplace else. And then we get into the notion of what a, career change. And one of the, it’s a very fearful time for anybody that’s made a career change.

And so what I try to convince them of that fear is due to lack of data. And so, we get more data when we buy a car or a house than we do our career. And we feel like that we have to take this guess. We have to presume things are that way when in fact, you don’t, you can, you don’t have to make a decision until you have enough data [00:30:00] to decide whether or not that’s a good career for you.

And so, there’s some practical sides of this that help people. But there’s some biblical applications for all those.

Casey Cease: No that’s, so important to be able to remind people that like, Hey, you don’t stop being who you are just because you clock in. And in order to get successful, I mean, okay, let’s say you become someone else to get success, then there’s a massive disconnect on who you are, who you’re meant to be, and then how you’re actually leading other people.

And going back to the fear based leadership, while it might get some immediate results, it’s going to cause long term damage. Not only to the souls that you’re leading, but to the organization that you’re running. So, if you were to say, Hey, here’s three magic things that an organization can do to stop being a fear based organization.

Do you have that off the top of your head? Or is that something like there we’re going to have to come to motivity and sign up and

Rod Brace: No, no,

Casey Cease: join one of your coaching programs?

Rod Brace: no, Yeah. The you know, first thing is, and maybe the most important thing [00:31:00] is stop hiring and retaining jerks. I mean, It’s real simple. If you’re a board member, and you’re not successful in the organization the way you want to be, take a look. You have probably put leaders that are jerks in leadership positions. And those jerks are going to run off the best people you have and the people that are around are going to be little jerks because that’s how they think.

Things need to get done. I think the second thing is what we talked about a while ago is spend an inordinate amount of time on setting expectations, lots of time. Because we have so much of this online work that’s going on. I have my clients go through a list of make a list of only those things that you can do. Nobody else on your team, nobody else in the organization can do them. Just you. You know, there’s a handful of those. Now, add to that list, all the things that you’re doing. And, in some cases, there’s hundreds of [00:32:00] these things that they’re doing that other people could do. And the problem is, no one is expected of them only to do what we hired you to do.

And as a result, out of a sense, I’m more important, or I can have a greater sense of security if I do all these things, they’re ineffective. They’re not doing the things that are their talents to do that.

And, you know, I think the last thing is just be move in down into the organization so that you know what’s really going on.

Most leaders of most, senior leaders of organizations, they don’t know what’s going on. They don’t know what people are thinking. They don’t know of the 10,000 policies that they’ve put in place that make work difficult, not able to make daily progress towards meaningful work. They don’t know what people don’t know.

They don’t know what people don’t feel confident doing. They don’t know about the relationships that their supervisors are having with their employees. They just don’t [00:33:00] know. And so, to that message, there’s three universal needs that I think everybody seeks. And the one is competence. They want to know that they can do a good job.

Senior leaders don’t know if they’re doing a good job or not. And that brings fear where that employee knows I’m not, I don’t know what I’m doing. So, that’s a fear based environment that they bring up on themselves. The second was autonomy. All employees know, and I don’t get to call all the shots here, but I at least like to see my fingerprints on some things here.

I’d like to be given some leeway to be creative and innovate. And in a fear based organization, there’s a lot of micromanagement. Because we’re fearful that people are going to make mistakes and reflect that on me but they have to have autonomy. And then lastly, they want to work for somebody that they, you know, want to work with people they like, and so, as a leader allows disruptive employees to stay on the team, that’s going to drive off the good people. If a leader is not [00:34:00] likable, that’s going to drive it. And so, when you put those three things together, that autonomy, confidence, and relatedness, that’s what forms engagement.

That’s what ties people to an organization. And so, you don’t see those things being misaligned unless as a senior leader, you’re out walking around talking to people. You’re asking him, what frustrates you? What can I do to make your path towards meaningful work? Oh, fewer speed bumps.

That’s the work of the leader not sitting in office. I always say offices are the least profitable square footage of any business. It isolates us. It gives us a false sense of security that we know what’s going on when we don’t. We’ve got to get out. We’ve got to develop transparent, honest relationships with people so that they tell us what’s going on, and that’s the whole psychological safety.

Casey Cease: Rod, is there anything I haven’t asked you for this episode? I know I’m going to bring you on plenty of times, but is there anything I haven’t asked you this episode that I should have asked you?

Rod Brace: No, I don’t think so. I think, you always have great insightful questions. I’d be happy to come back on anytime. [00:35:00] It all fits together. God has a plan for our work. And so, it’s all about uh, work, God, and you.

Casey Cease: So where can people find you online? How can they connect with you?

Rod Brace: Rod Brace, you can find Motivity Media at MotivityMedia.com. That’s M O T I V I T Y. com. You can, on there, you can find the text based messages that I sent out, some links for that

Casey Cease: And we’ll put that in the show notes as well. So, people can sign up for the text message everything

Rod Brace: Yeah, it’s uh, just, you text my work to 833 721 0635.

Casey Cease: Awesome. Well, Rod, thanks so much for today. I can’t wait to have you back on the show again.

Rod Brace: Appreciate it. Thanks Casey.

That wraps up this episode of the KCC Show. Make sure to visit our website, thekccshow. com, where you can subscribe to the show on iTunes, Spotify, or via RSS, so you’ll never miss a show. While you’re at it, if you found value in this show, we’d appreciate a [00:36:00] rating on iTunes, or if you’d simply tell a friend about the show that would help us out too.

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